SoCal Jet Boats
Tech Talk => Jet Pumps => Topic started by: 75fantasy on August 12, 2021, 06:50:38 PM
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I’m looking to install a shoe/ride plate on my intake before I put it back in the boat and have a few questions.
1) when machining for the shoe, is the shoe mounting plane (yellow line) parallel to the hull mounting surface (red line)?
2) let’s say my shoe is 1/2” thick, so I only remove 1/2” of material from the intake? That way I’m starting from 0 when adding shims.
3) as far as the ride plate, any angle will be determined by the cut on the rear of the shoe?
Thanks in advance
John
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I had this saved from somewhere
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It won't attach the diagram I have, but it is parallel with the flange
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Mr. Flusher walked me through it.
If I remember right, it was machined at 2° (smaller and the tail end)
The shoe is relieved at the rear for the ride plate. The ride plate angle is determined by the rear adjustment, underneath the bowl at the steering adapter. (Cradle to ride plate)
I'll look through my notes to double check the degree of machining.
Dan'l
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I searched but couldn’t find the answers so I thought it’ll be good info for others as well.
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https://www.performanceboats.com/threads/intake-machining.7770/
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https://www.performanceboats.com/threads/intake-machining.7770/
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Thanks Skipper
Post #11 must be the diagram hotrodrob21 was talking about.
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I know we’re just scratching the surface here so….
Can’t see who drew the diagram but I think question 1 is answered relative to their shoe installation.
I feel question #3 is answered.
In regards to question #2, in the diagram is specifies .562”. Is their shoe .562 thick? Which will put the shoe on plane with the front of the intake.
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That is the diagram I had. Looks like it's leaving .562 from the flange. How much you're removing could vary by intake.
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That is the diagram I had. Looks like it's leaving .562 from the flange. How much you're removing could vary by intake.
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You’re right about the call out (.562 dim.) I read it wrong. Thanks
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What kind of boat is this for?
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Cole fire star with delta pad.
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I’m looking to install a shoe/ride plate on my intake before I put it back in the boat and have a few questions.
1) when machining for the shoe, is the shoe mounting plane (yellow line) parallel to the hull mounting surface (red line)?
Almost always, yes. That will also make the shoe surface 4-degrees to the suction housing gasket surface.
2) let’s say my shoe is 1/2” thick, so I only remove 1/2” of material from the intake? That way I’m starting from 0 when adding shims.
That's really not the right way to think about it. EVERYTHING is relative to the keel. Again, what kind of boat? Every intake install is different. If you wanted to start with a guess, a 5/8" shoe is a safe bet. I wouldn't do a half inch shoe, but it comes back to what is the hull?
It sounds to me like you have the technical savvy and the tools and machinery to do the work. I would not make the shoe until after you have the intake set in the hull. That way, you can actually measure your biting edge depth and make the shoe accordingly.
Ideally, for a back cut shoe, you would want the end of the back cut, just in front of the ride plate, to be even with the keel. This is a "safe" yet aggressive setup.
You should also make a selection of shims to increase your biting edge depth. Your shim set should also include ride plate shims. Whatever change you make to your shoe shims, you need to make the same change to your cradle and ride plate, otherwise your ride plate angle changes.
You will want enough shims to bring your biting edge depth even with your keel. Typically shims are 1/32", 1/16", and 3/32" thick. How many shims you need are relative to how ambitious you are about "dialing in" your boat. Most people are satisfied with the "safe" setup and never add any shims. A few people will end up with a whole case full of shoes and shims.
Be advised, DON'T start out with every shim installed. Gradually add shoe depth and thoroughly test to verify that your boat is safe and wants more shoe depth. The more shoe depth you add, the more dangerous your boat becomes.
3) as far as the ride plate, any angle will be determined by the cut on the rear of the shoe?
It depends on the type of boat.
A V-bottom hull will start out with 4-degrees (safe) ride plate angle and may approach a 6-degree (kill) ride plate angle. I would most likely start out with a 2-degree ride plate step in the shoe.
In a tunnel hull, the step would probably be zero or 1-degree max.
These angles are guidelines and many factors need to be considered. There is no such thing as one-size-fits-all. There is "good enough for most" and "pushing the edge of performance" as well as all levels of in between.
Thanks in advance
John
Hope this is helpful.
Cheers,
Joe
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Cole fire star with delta pad.
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I'll be honest, I'm not the delta pad master.
If you are really ambitious, I would consider making a thinner 5/8" shoe with more shims for maximum adjustability. You really need to measure when the intake is set in the boat.
Delta pads don't load very well and need a slightly more aggressive shoe and loader. Keep in mind, the more aggressive, the more brutal your shutdown will be.
There is also the issue of more drag. More shoe depth eqates to more drag. More shoe depth = more water loading your impeller = more thrust, but at the expense of drag. The ambitious will find the best balance between thrust and drag for best performance.
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Thanks for the info Joe. You were probably typing when I replied on boat. New to me Cole firestar with delta pad. I know not the best bottom which is why I want the option of the shoe if needed. Have a bbc but not built yet.
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Yes helpful! I’ve been reading other threads here and on PB site that had some info but may have not completely answered the questions. I know one size does not fit all but I needed a little more clarification on these 3 before jumping in!
I’ll take pics as I go.
All, again thanks for the help.
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Yes helpful! I’ve been reading other threads here and on PB site that had some info but may have not completely answered the questions. I know one size does not fit all but I needed a little more clarification on these 3 before jumping in!
I’ll take pics as I go.
All, again thanks for the help.
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Sorry I'm slow responding, I don't have the millenial texting skills.
I'm not a fan of the above posted dimensions.
Attached is the bolt pattern developed by Jack McClure of MPD.
Keep in mind how much load is on the shoe, it would be a terrible thing if it were to come off at speed.
I would say the two 1/4-20UNC in the front provide substantial leverage and holding force, with the fulcrum point being about the two middle bolts. This utilizes an otherwise unloaded area to provide additional holding force.
The two middle 5/16-18UNC bolts are located for the widest achievable back cut surface width when used with countersunk bolts and are located at the beginning of the highly loaded area of the shoe.
The four-hole ride plate bolt pattern is less likely to break through into the water surface, just before the impeller. Any disturbance in that area causes cavitation.
There are probably more of Jack's bolt pattern than any other pattern, meaning that you would be more likely to be able to borrow or share hardware with your friends. I have made shoes for every bolt pattern, in my opinion, Jack's is the best and has an elegance to it, and there is no reason to use any other pattern. I will say that I have even seen people come up with their own bolt pattern and the reality is, they all work. Any failure is due to installer error.
All holes should have 1" thread depth. Ensure that the center two ride plate bolt holes do not break into the water surface. Ideally, you want a minimum of two times the bolt diameter of thread engagement. That means that a 1/4" bolt should have a full 1/2" of thread engagement and a 5/16" bolt should have a full 5/8" of thread engagement. Two times the diameter thread engagement is recommended because you are threading into cast aluminum. You want to give the threads the best possible chance of success. Depending on how many shims you use, it would be nice to not have to have custom length bolts for every shim.
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The dimensions that should be different from the above posted diagram (posted here for reference) are as follows:
The 0.562 dimension should be .700-.718 inches. There is a slight twist in the casting, if you measure at both corners, you will see that. I usually measure in the middle (pictured), to split the difference.
The last two pictures show the area that if you haven't cut enough, the shape doesn't come in. There will be an abrupt wall instead of a smooth transition for the water path. Watch this area as you are cutting.
Cutting much deeper than .700-.718 compromises hole depth and possibly thread engagement.
The 7.375 dimension should be 7.875. This provides for the front two 1/4-20UNC bolts and utilities a square 7.875" square shoe blank.
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Sorry I'm slow responding, I don't have the millenial texting skills.
By the way you de-constructed my post by each question, I would’nt say that!!
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Ok more questions…..
Are these never been seen before pictures?! In all my searches never came across these.
I’m not new to jet boats but am new to building/blueprinting jet pumps….. is that an o-ring groove on the top of the suction housing?!
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Yes helpful! I’ve been reading other threads here and on PB site that had some info but may have not completely answered the questions. I know one size does not fit all but I needed a little more clarification on these 3 before jumping in!
I’ll take pics as I go.
All, again thanks for the help.
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I would make a 3-degree back cut shoe with a 2-degree ride plate step.
The other dimension that you need to be aware of is the opening length. Measuring from the front of the loader (rock grate) pad, a standard intake opening is 13.5 inches. A standard opening is a good place to start for almost all boats.
The attached picture is for illustration purposes only, the pictured shoe is not the correct shoe for that intake. It's just what I have available right now.
Lastly, make sure that the leading edge of your ride plate does not hang lower than your shoe.
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Just in case...
https://www.socaljetboats.com/index.php?topic=21296.0
ride plate or shoe and ride plate?
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More great info thanks.
Different topic, tell me about the o-ring groove on the suction piece.
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More great info thanks.
Different topic, tell me about the o-ring groove on the suction piece.
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https://youtu.be/o4BOZcDMw_A
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I hate gaskets!
In all seriousnes...
The reason bowls and droops are double drilled is not because the pressure is going to blow the pump apart. It's because the gaskets push out. The extra clamping force is enough to support the gasket over the wide span of the bolt spacing. If you wanted to drill the bolt pattern per SAE specs in the Machinist's Handbook, you would add two bolts instead of just one in between each existing bolt. An o-ring would solve the gasket fitment issue created and give us the cool factor needed to get all the chicks. However, the added weight of the additional bolts diminishes our cool factor and we might not be the hero when that weed whacker bass boat tries to line up next to us.
The most problematic gasket is the suction to intake. The clamping force is weak with the wide spaced 5/16" bolts. If that surface is sand blasted and powder coated, you can brace yourself for gasket failure.
I set out to develop a "double-drilled" intake, but it had to be compatible with every possible intake/suction combination and combined with an o-ring. B1 corporate decided that my overwhelming coolness needed to be stifled and the project was killed until now.
How I do it:
I could have simply just put the groove in the middle with some radiused corners and called it good. Then it would be easy enough to just make the appropriate o-ring from cord stock, but that's just not the kind of machinists we are. I manipulated the dimensions and arc lengths until the actual linear distance of my o-ring groove matched the circumference of a standard off-the-shelf o-ring.
The groove was machined per the Parker Hannifin O-Ring Handbook (my authority for o-ring seals) for a .139 diameter cross-section, .111 +/-.001 deep. I wanted ease of installation, so I made the width so that it has a slight drag on the o-ring so that it remains in place during assembly. The suction experiences both pressure and vacuum. The process spec describes which side to offset the groove. In this case ease of installation took precedence.
I made a fixture to hold the intake and cut it with an 1/8" endmill.
I don't really know what to say about an o-ring groove, I was trying to be humorous.
Cheers,
Joe
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That was funny!
I figured it was for speedy pump removal/reassembly. The previous owner of my pump use some type of super sealant, crazy hard to separate. So yeah I hate sealants!
Definitely cool factor.
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Trying to do things more aerospace than hill billy
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well, I finally started machining my intake. I couldn't find any other setups, so I mounted it to the table this way for better or worse. just creeping up to the final dimensions.
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drilled and tapped
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now for the shoe.
does anyone have a drawing of a (mpd) shoe with ride plate dimensions? or know the dim from center bolt hole to inside edge?
if the first row is .500" from the edge, the other half may be .500" as well? 1" total?
update, joe (flusher) gave me the dims 1.010"l x .260"d.
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Bolt pattern drilled
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That's cool as hell man, really doing it up
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That's cool as hell man, really doing it up
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Thanks.
Do you have a shoe/ride plate?
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ride plate step and world's smallest ride plate. lol
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No I wanted to hook the jc intake up with one on my cruiser but I needed it back on the water quicker than that would have taken, my next endeavor will have all the fixins tho
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No I wanted to hook the jc intake up with one on my cruiser but I needed it back on the water quicker than that would have taken, my next endeavor will have all the fixins tho
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It?ll be next summer until this boat see water.
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blending the transition and back cut. still work to be done, I can only work on it at break.
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other than the cradle or turn buckles, Im done with the shoe and ride plate machining.
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other than the cradle or turn buckles, Im done with the shoe and ride plate machining.
Looks good
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other than the cradle or turn buckles, Im done with the shoe and ride plate machining.
Looks good
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other than the cradle or turn buckles, Im done with the shoe and ride plate machining.
Looks good
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other than the cradle or turn buckles, Im done with the shoe and ride plate machining.
Looks good
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Thanks bud!
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Looks awesome! I really want to dive into my pump. I think its all screwed up but there is not a lot of info for a large 21' jet with delta pad.
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Looks awesome! I really want to dive into my pump. I think its all screwed up but there is not a lot of info for a large 21' jet with delta pad.
What would you like to do?